yes @evgenymorozov @rsamatthew @pubstrat, the internet really is destroyer of hierarchy

Via a couple of tweets, I ran into this blog posting by Matthew Taylor of the Royal Society of Arts:

The internet is neither neutral nor inherently liberating. It operates in the context of existing social conventions and power structures. Its impact is real but often subtle and unexpected.

Yesterday we had a fascinating event with Evgeny Morozov, a US based expert on how political regimes use technology. Contradicting the lazy cyber utopianism of many politicians and commentators, he showed how authoritarian regimes like China, Russia and Iran are using the internet as a tool of reaction and repression. From Russia’s experiments with e-consultation, to the Iranian and Chinese regimes using crowd sourcing to identify dissidents, to the use by various regimes (including Israel) of private companies to manipulate online polls and Google searches, bad people in high places are proving as good at using the internet as good people blogging for freedom from their basements. Indeed, these regimes have been as good at using the internet to foster nationalism and pro-regime extremism among the young as the opposition have at mobilising protest.

Morozov also questioned the idea that the internet encourages democratic engagement showing, for example, that Chinese young people are even more likely than those in the West to use the internet primarily for entertainment (adult or otherwise). It is as much a new opium for the people as a catalyst for democratic awakening.

[…]

There’s a bunch of mistakes in this that I am not sure whether to lay at the door of @evgenymorozov or @RSAMatthew; I agree with the first paragraph because the internet is clearly just a tool – a tool of communication – and like any tool it can be used for good or ill; it’s the intent of the communication which may be an issue.

To confirm this, there’s a simple test: “would [the repressed people] be any better off for the lack of [The Internet]?”

Answer: ‘no’. Removing the Internet from anywhere will not make anyone “more liberated’.

In passing: I find the suggestion that e-consultation is repressive to be vastly amusing; again it’s the intention behind the communication (eg: ignore it all) that is the issue.

Then there is the author’s implicit confusion between the Web and the Internet, as Adriana first highlighted; they are very different, chaps, but in some ways it’s a good thing that authority still thinks of the web in terms of nicely prosecutable web-entities such as “Amazon”, “Google” or “www.telegraph.co.uk” because that blindness means there are few attempts to regulate the equality of all internet nodes – ie: that there is no difference to HTML served either from my iMac or from blogger.com.

The internet is an enormous graffiti wall, so large that the entire planet can see it:

  • nobody can really regulate what is written on it
  • if you try to filter how some people look at it (http filtering), folk will use a different telescope (vpn, tor, sms, torrent)
  • Yes, governments can write on the wall too, but there’s an infinite amount of space available, and you don’t have to believe everything you read.

Regards:

“Chinese young people are even more likely than those in the West to use the internet primarily for entertainment (adult or otherwise)”

– yes, there’s a lot of porn on the wall; maybe those who can’t get it any way see its web-availability as “freedom”? After a few years of training their teenage geeks to walk around firewalls to get at the porn, the Chinese will have an even bigger problem of controlling information access.

The final paragraph, though, really grates on me:

The web is changing culture, relationships and organisations. Its effects are real and important. Sometimes they are good and sometimes not. The exaggerated claims of those who say the internet is inherently a destroyer of organisations and hierarchies or that it is bound to lead to greater democracy and collaboration are an unhelpful distraction from the important study of the internet’s real impact on real lives.

I don’t get that; apart from not seeing the zero-sumness of it all (“unhelpful distraction” – what, is there only so much interest to be doled-out amongst people who think?) – there is the simple answer to all the above: the internet clearly is a destroyer of hierarchy, because it supports more forms and freedom of communication than is permitted by hierarchy.

Just because you are supposed to be getting your news from http://news.propaganda.gov.dom/ every morning, does not stop you trading porn and gossip with your mates on bittorrent – and that’s really hard to squash.

Finally, I wonder: Who are these people with “real lives” of whom you speak? I dunno about the folk to whom I am responding, but I’ve been living in this digital world since 1985 and it’s only getting bigger and better.

Comments

6 responses to “yes @evgenymorozov @rsamatthew @pubstrat, the internet really is destroyer of hierarchy”

  1. Brad

    Re: destroying hierarchies and organizations

    In the U.S. the successful political campaigns of Jesse Ventura for governor or Minnesota and to a lesser extent, Barack Obama for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States highlight the way that the Internet can overcome the hierarchy of political parties.

    Just an example.

  2. pubstrat

    Thank you for taking the trouble to respond on this – the issues here are interesting and important ones. My sense, though is that they are more nuanced than is being suggested. At the RSA event, Morozov rightly got quite a hard time in the questions about whether the picture could be quite as negative as he had painted it – I asked him a version of your question: whether he thought the Eastern European dissidents of twenty years ago (who were most certainly not living in a digital world) were really better off without the internet, and I don’t think I got a good answer. You can now see his talk for yourself without Matthew Taylor’s gloss as the RSA has put up a video of the event (though ironically, the Q&A which in many ways was the most interesting bit has been completely left out).
    The obvious fact that governments are not and cannot be the only or even dominant voice on the internet isn’t the end of the issue though. Public discourse can be distorted by strong voices even if they don’t have a monopoly and in practice the web is the overwhelmingly dominant online channel for most people.
    So if the argument is that the internet tends to subvert hierarchy, I entirely agree. If the argument is that the internet destroys hierarchy or that it always and everywhere undermines hierarchy, I don’t think the case is made.

  3. @pubstrat – The loud and incorrect jerk is not an Internet phenomenon, it’s a human communication phenomenon. However, it’s easier to point-out poor logic and incorrect facts on the Internet… it’s also simple to ignore people on the Internet.

  4. I just have one quick question to request clarification:

    “the web is the overwhelmingly dominant online channel for most people”

    Is the Web Twitter? Is it LiveJournal? Is it Blogspot? Friendfeed? Flickr? Google?

    The web is a space – it is no more a channel than the internet, and albeit restricted to (say) TCP port 80 it is still not something controllable, especially since I can (and do) set up webservers on cellphones, occasionally.

    So why think of it as a channel? Ah, well, that’s where I believe you (and others) are seeing it form the perspective of a publisher; but dissidents, etc, are *users*. It’s a distinction which is not widely comprehended, alas.

    Your last paragraph I think hinges on the definition of “destroy” and the hierarchies we are comparing; to me it is pretty clear that maintenance of hierarchical authority (thou shalt read Pravda!) in a network which allows arbitrary peer to peer connections (…after reading the proxied feed of BoingBoing!) – is impossible.

    So, the hierarchy is broken. The peer2peer nature of the Internet does not have to “work” to achieve this, there is no extra effort expended, there is no “undermining”… It just *is*. All the other boundaries are illusory.

    Hierarchy is a bad fit that some are trying to impose upon the internet; that’s their problem. The net doesn’t care.

    There’s a wonderful tool called “traceroute” that allows you to see from one end of the internet to the other, and all the hops in between; I just tracerouted the path between my machine and yours – very short, it turns out we’re on the same ISP – and that tool *also* will show me the path from me to a website in China.

    Who gave me permission to do that? Nobody. It just works that way.

  5. Hi although the video of Evgeny’s event on our website just features his talk, you can download the mp3 audio file which is the full audio of Evgeny’s talk and the Q&A.

    You can access the audio for free on our website and on iTunes.

    http://www.thersa.org/events/audio-and-past-events/2009/the-internet-in-society-empowering-or-censoring-citizens

    RSA Events

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