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8 responses to “Limbo going to Hell?”

1. 2006/10/06

   NTR Martin Luther

   re: Limbo going to Hell?

   Um, I don’t think so.

   Conversion from Roman Catholicism is higher in “heavily developing countries” like, say, South and Central America. These people are converting to Protestant catholicism at a much higher rate that might be more alarming to Rome than the loss of Africans or South Asia/Micronesians to Islam.

   Given the long tradition of Protestantism dispelling “limbo”, I would say that the BBC’s suggesting that this move is to counter Islamic teachings is a little opportunistic (THE BBC, OPPORTUNISTIC! SAY IT ISN’T SO!).

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2. 2006/10/06

   alecm

   Opportunistic?

   Pray tell, which agenda is Auntie Beeb meant to be pursuing with this one?

   Over the past few months I’ve heard that the BBC is [pure evil, a monopoly, a socialist hangover, worse than American television, flooding the US market with reality formats, and an illegal tax on the populace].

   Further I have been told that that they are indoctrinating the populace with views that are [anti-jew, anti-israel, anti-american, pro-christian, pro-muslim, pro-palestinian, pro-scotland, pro-government, anti-government, athiest, biased towards the right, biased towards the left].

   Oh, and the 800lb gorilla that is the BBC website covers [too many, too few] topics, and [needs to be funded to expand and stay relevant, needs to be regulated to give other resources a chance].

   And I’ve been told some nice things, too, like the World Service – although being savagely cut back – is still one of Britain’s greatest ambassadors and exports; and that the BBC is still one of the greatest resources in the world.

   Of course, the latter I have only been told by non-UK residents.

   So now, Mr Unreal Luther of Columbus Ohio, you are claiming that it is pro-Protestant, anti-Catholic? I’m sure the people who claimed that it was pro-Republican in Northern Ireland will be pleased to see balance.

   I suspect that the truth is: it’s probably all of these things, a little, and none of these things, a lot.

   If you don’t like the TV license, then don’t have a TV. My friend Warthog doesn’t, and seems to enjoy peeving the (outsources to capitalist Capita) TV license people.

   Oh, wait, you’re in the States, hitting the BBC website and freeloading off our license fee except maybe you’re not as the BBC also *sells* programming to make revenue oh dear I am far too rational to keep up a tirad I wonder how the fair-and-balanced networks in the USA manage to keep it going 24×7?

   Kool-aid perhaps?

   Reply
3. 2006/10/06

   Geoff Arnold

   re: Limbo going to Hell?

   I cracked up over this one:

   The Pope has been quoted as dismissing the notion as a mere “hypothesis”.

   Surely this applies to just about everything in RC doctrine. In his latest book, Dawkins quotes what passes for an “argument” that purgatory exists:

   (1) people pray for the souls of those who have died

   (2) if therrre were no such thing as purgatory, such prayers would be pointless – the souls in question would already be in heaven (or perhaps hell)

   (3) therefore purgatory exists

   This ranks right up there with “God wouldn’t be so mean as to make me believe he existed if he didn’t!!”

   Reply
4. 2006/10/06

   NTR Anthony Flew

   re: Limbo going to Hell?

   Um, wow champ – nice rant. Look, all I said was that if the RCs were going to kill Limbo, the numbers would support that it’s in response to pressures in South/Central America rather than the Middle East or Asia. Now if you have some data (or the BBC did) that supports otherwise, great! Have at. Otherwise, it would seem to me that the BBC would rather try to regain Q ratings of the recent Islamic/Papist nonsense simply by accusation rather than using any substantial evidence. Because whether they have tons of “Freeloaders” or not (and you really should take a deep breath before ranting – your “license/freeloader” text was so inconsistent I had a tough time trying to figure out if you were insulting me for being too socialist or too capitalist) advertising or not – the BBC will always have some agenda other than driving objectivity into the news. I mean, come on! Do you really believe that there’s never an agenda from the newsroom?

   I reiterate the point of my post- if the evidence says otherwise, I go with evidence rather than rely on the um, journalistic integrity of the BBC – or the musings of their “experts in the field”. Maybe you believe the BBC is more “fair and balanced” than Fox or NPR – great! I tend to be a skeptic,skeptical of Protestants, Roman Catholics, Islamists, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Zoarastrians and Atheists – oh, and politicians,journalists, rich people, poor people, shamans, scientists and informaiton security bloggers.

   But your response makes it pretty obvious that you’re not ready to talk rationally about other points of view or potential reasons for the Vatican to be motivated to kill Limbo (like maybe rich US RCs who have been told to be Pro-Life by their church would now rather not have a Limbo), and the concept of Limbo is so irrational, I’d rather not think about that as well, that it’s just not worth any more digital ink. Good of you to be so even tempered.

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5. 2006/10/06

   alecm

   re: Limbo going to Hell?

   Wow:

   – an an-hominem attack (“nice rant”)

   – a denial (“all i said was”)

   – a strawman requirement to justify someone else’s op-ed (“if you’ve got”)

   – an ad-hoc opinion from an anonymous user (“it seems to me”)

   – an attack on my style (“was so inconsistent”)

   – a potentially defensible question (“never an agenda?”)

   – a recap of your distrust of journalists (“rely on journalistic integrity”)

   – an assertion of your anonymous skepticality (various)

   – and a spoiling tactic (“pretty obvious that you’re not ready”)

   How very academic of you.

   The only two things I need to address here are the denial and the defensible question, the rest can be ignored as fluff.

   1) Regarding your “all I said” denial, you did say that you felt that loss of the RC consumer base in South America might be a bigger factor than the potential in Africa, and frankly I believe that you may well be correct in this observation.

   However this is not *ALL* you said; you also added:

   <QUOTE> I would say that the BBC’s suggesting that this move is to counter Islamic teachings is a little opportunistic</QUOTE>

   …and I would add that I found your tone to be of a clubbish “nobody here will like or trust journalists” sort, which unfortunately is not correct in my case.

   Your bad luck, sorry.

   This leads me to:

   2) Yes; I’ve had several run-ins with journalists over the years, have some as friends, and I know how newspaper agendas work. I even have my personal favourites amongst the UK papers, selecting between the ones which pilloried and those which defended me, neither for my benefit but in pursuit of their own sales/agendas.

   I further know from experience that the BBC “agenda” is highly variable between media (TV, UK-radio, World-radio, Web…) and between individual programmes and producers, so any accusation of consistent bias is immediately suspect in my eyes.

   In short: “You’re wrong to cast aspersions like that. At very least if you are going to try it at all, you will need to be more vague to not sound like an idiot.”

   As for your comments on my style: I don’t just write for you, I write for others, too. Plus, this is my blog, and my rantspace, and runs on my dollar, so hard cheese to you, dear heart.

   As for “trying to figure out if you were insulting me for being too socialist or too capitalist” – the answer is neither; I was merely casting aspersions on your apparent wingnut/moonbattiness [delete as appropriate]. Your personal political inclinations are unimportant to me, other than they appear to drive a cocktail-party style of opinionation grounded in a few good thoughts and a lot of pointed, perhaps smug intimation.

   As for mine being a “nice rant” – all I can say is that your style suggests that you missed the september that never ended, and this would explain a lot.

   HTH. HAND.

   Reply
6. 2006/10/09

   Adriana

   re: Limbo going to Hell?

   I am of the biased BBC school (www.biased-bbc.blogspot.com/ – you’ll find Samizdata.net listed in the left hand column). In short, I don’t trust any journo who claims to be objective. I have been talking about the myth of objectivity in the media for the last 3-4 years and if anything, more of their biases are becoming apparent, CBS, Reuters to name a few. The BBC does seem to lead the pack with its pervasive bias covered up with sanctimonious ‘balanced attitude’. And don’t get me started on the whole TV license issue, yes, it is just another tax. Your summary of “pure evil, a monopoly, a socialist hangover, worse than American television, flooding the US market with reality formats, and an illegal tax on the populace” is pretty accurate, apart from the pure evil bit – they are nowhere near competent enough to be that. 🙂

   As for the RC limbo argument, I am not aware of direct rivarly between RC and islam in that area. It’s the Evangelicals that pose a much greater threat, to be honest, so I think the BBC pulling that one shows either ignorance or bias. But I may be behind on the latest ecclesiastical squabbles…

   I don’t want to be pedantic [she lied :)] but getting rid of Original Sin wouldn’t help everyone die happy as between birth and death we’d be sure to commit some sins, which would put a stop to that.

   Pope’s ‘hypothesis’ statement about the limbo refers probably to the fact that the teaching on purgatory is not part of the RC dogma. As such it can be disputed and evolve over time. I am sure that secular pressures on RC church do play a role but I find the church teaching pretty consistent over the millenia (within its framework of assumptions, of course).

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7. 2006/10/10

   alecm

   re: Limbo going to Hell?

   <<< I don’t want to be pedantic [she lied :)] but getting rid of Original Sin wouldn’t help everyone die happy as between birth and death we’d be sure to commit some sins, which would put a stop to that. >>>

   Mmm…

   “Sins”

   What a marvellous concept to enable control of a potentially rowdy populace.

   Plus, what wonderful ways to have fun.

   Well, some of them, anyway…

   Reply
8. 2006/10/11

   Holly

   re: Limbo going to Hell?

   Funny, Alec and I had the BBC conversation about a fortnight ago and I agree with you – I keep boring people with it and they look at me like I’m a loon (that might just be the way people look at me though – *ponders* hmmm).

   It is very interesting that we sit in the UK and talk in a rather self congratulatory way about a free press(particularly regarding the BBC news service), when actually whilst its better than many countries, it is far from unbiased…or free.

   In fact it all seems more political than ever. People are becoming so used to being spoon fed information that they seem have forgotten the importance of forming an opinion about the information they are consuming. I think they just view it as data and therefore ‘fact’.

   Don’t know nuffink about RC church though. I’m on the ‘Highway to Hell’ \M/

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